What ingredients do you need to cook up the world's fastest-growing DeFi platform? Can you create cash-flow from your crypto? We caught up with the founders of Cake Defi - Julian Hosp and U-Zyn Chua.
Walter Jennings: I'm Walter Jennings and this is Waves in the Finoverse. Joining us in this week's episode are the two co-founders of Cake DeFi, the world's fastest growing DeFi platform. Julian Hosp CEO and U-Zyn Chua CTO joined us in the booth for a conversation about the right ingredients that have made cake DeFi such a success and also the introduction of their new enterprise-grade solution. Welcome to Waves in the Finoverse.
U-Zyn Chua: Thank you for having me.
Julian Hosp: Welcome.Thank you
Walter Jennings: Fantastic, now Cake DeFi is known as the world's fastest-growing DeFi platform. Now, for our listeners, let's begin with kind of picking apart DeFi, or decentralised finance, and the role of Cake DeFi.
U-Zyn Chua: Sure, decentralised finance started, I think around end of 2018 - early 2019. So it's a very technologically advanced and also very taxing to use it for a lot of users. So Cake DeFi started around 2019, I mean, in mid 2019. So we started this to bring DeFi in a way that's very easy for user to use DeFi without having to understand what smart contracts are, what people do with Solidi, will be able to know how to manage private keys.
A lot of users this is want to use DeFi, generally yields, want to do some swaps, want to do some transactions on DeFi. So you come to Cake for that, you provide a very easy simple access to DeFi that any user who understand how money works would know how to use Cake DeFi to generate cash flow to use it, to do swap, to do one token to another. So this is what we bring on Cake DeFi.
Julian Hosp: Yeah, so the two of us, I think we've been in crypto for quite some time. And the one pain point that we always felt was there's no cash flow on your crypto. So you just store your bitcoins or your ETH, but there's no real cash flow. And yeah, we always thought wouldn't it be great to have a way where you're gonna get a yield on your investment, not just you wait on the speculation of price up or down, but you can actually get a yield. And so that's how everything started.
Walter Jennings: Right. So prior to Cake DeFi, you would have been a HODLer, holding on for Dear Life, living the crypto coins bank up in your account. What are the options for crypto holders now with Cake DeFi
U-Zyn Chua: So Cake DeFi is not an exchange. So you can go from one token to the other by going through DeFi service itself. So we integrate swap on DeFi so you can go from token to the other completely through decentralised finance as it meant to be. So there's no counterparty that you have to transact with, you just going through a smart contract, you get things out of that.
And on top of that, as well. The other things that we provide are staking, so you can stake your ETH, you can stake your DASH and DeFi on our platform, you can generally yield on that in a very open and transparent manner.
Julian Hosp: It started with staking in 2019. That's consensus algorithm is very popular. We have lending and borrowing. Very typical traditional business in this case via blockchain, there's liquidity mining, which is super innovative, sometimes bit difficult to understand for newbies, but very high yield, sometimes 100% a year, then you have this concept of decentralised tokenization also not that easy to understand.
That's why a lot of yield. And then you mix between all those in try to get a bit of a kind of average or kind of diversify into the various options.
Walter Jennings: Let's talk about staking. So, I am a hypothetical holder of a wallet with a number of coins and that. What is staking mean and what does that provide users?
U-Zyn Chua: So blockchain operates around consensus. So you need miners or you need staking, stakers to manage the consensus of a blockchain. So for proof of work coin right, like Bitcoin, you would exchange electricity, you would do some mining to secure the Bitcoin Blockchain itself, so for coins like ETH right now they move to proof of stake.
So what you do is you take your ETH, you then stake it to participate in the consensus of ETH. And in exchange for that, you're going to get a return for the ETH that you participate in the consensus taking.
Julian Hosp: If you have a centralised infrastructure, let's say a bank, then the bank decides what your bank account looks like. So if you transfer money, the bank says "Yep, sure, I'm transferring that money, I'm taking it out of your account, and I'm giving it to someone else." In a decentralised system where there is no bank by design, it's a bit harder to kind of confirm that you have actually spent that money and someone else actually received it. So the way this is done is more of a democratic principle where as long as more than half of all the participants agree that you actually spend that money, it becomes set in stone. So now the only question is, how do we find out that someone is someone and it's not a fake bots, it's that Twitter thing about the bot problem.
So on blockchain is exists as well. Bitcoin solves this by you having to solve mathematical calculations, burning energy, proof of work. And then in staking, you have to lock up funds. So you have to proof of stake and that makes you, that gives you the right to basically say "Yes, I'm part of those 50 something %, that you actually spend that money."
Walter Jennings: Right, so proof of stake is that people have put the coin on deposit. And if there's adequate amounts deposited, then that allows transactions to go ahead with enough ?
Julian Hosp: Correct, it allows you basically to secure the blockchain, but that's what many people call it. But you confirming and stating. Now you're not normally.. You don't do this, you let computers do all that. But the computers still need that kind of money as a stake that prove that they have. And you're not going to lock up funds for nothing. So you want to get a return. And so the way you get the return is on one hand, you get the transaction fees. And at the same time, many blockchains always have a little bit of an inflation, incentive reward for those stickers. And so that's what you perceive as 5% to 50% per year as yielding.
Walter Jennings: And what benefits do proof of stake have over proof of work?
U-Zyn Chua: Proof of Work works for over 10 years or so. But there's some growing concern, especially the last couple of years is that do we need to burn this amount of energy to secure a blockchain? Because the blockchain itself actually doesn't need that much energy to secure it. So natural progression for that is to then go to proof of stake because if you want to stake a coin, and you want to extend it to users who are already part of that ecosystem, and it's also arguably that it's more secure than proof of work moving forward.
So we've seen Ethereum, the largest coin in the world, moved to proof of stake and it's been tested for many years. And it's going, it's working really well. And we see this as the way forward for a lot of coins going forward.
Walter Jennings: Right now, if I go to a bank, and I deposit my money, it doesn't matter what dollar bills they give me back. Yet with coins, some of them have unusual provenance and could be considered dirty coins. How does Cake DeFi provides me that certainty that the coins I give you are the coins I get back.
Julian Hosp: So when users deposit funds onto the platform, we do check and trace that this is all clean, and we always get a risk score, the coins that get created out of staking by definition, they are clean, because they get created fresh from the protocol, and you basically produce them.
So these are 100%. Many times , that's actually interesting and fun fact for people to know, many times what's called the Genesis coin, so coins that come out of the block reward, many times actually traded the small premium in comparison to all the other coins, because they don't have any issues with tainted history.
Walter Jennings: I also understand you've got lending and liquidity mining. Tell us about these other services.
U-Zyn Chua: So lending works, just like you would in a very traditional financial institutions, where you would lend money to a borrower. So the way that we do it differently is, you know who you're facing. And we do it also through a smart contract. So you know, who you're facing, you know who you're lending to, instead of doing like a black box model where you're just gonna get a yield or you don't know who you are, who you're facing. And for liquidity, mining, the things that you're doing that to generate yield is you're providing liquidity to an exchange, to a decentralised exchange. And in exchange for that you're going to get a yield from there.
Walter Jennings: There have been some periods of market volatility. What happens if you're in a longer-term contract for lending? Have you seen challenges managing the market volatility?
U-Zyn Chua: It has been. We do see quite a bit of movement in the space the last couple of months or so. But one thing that's really, really clear now, we've seen a tremendous growth at Cake DeFi contrary to a lot of people's think, because I think what this teaches the last few, six months or so in the market is that people are now demanding transparency.
They want to know where the user coming from. They want to know what all this thing is, where all this 20% yields coming from, is, what, how do you print money without this thing? And with what we provide, we provide a very clear transparency on where are these user coming from. So there's no black box at Cake DeFi. And we've seen a tremendous growth the last two months, that people are demanding that more and they come to Cake DeFi to sign up.
Walter Jennings: Yeah, look, it's proven to be fairly popular, because you've just crossed the 1 million user mark, congratulations on that. What is it about Cake DeFi that has kind of captured that user base? Is it the offering? Or is it the customer experience? What's the magic in the sauce?
Julian Hosp: Jeff Bezos, from Amazon always had this famous saying that said, think when you design a product, think about three things that customers will love today. And they will love in 10 years, and make sure that your product is designed around that. So we asked ourselves this, when it comes to DeFi when it comes to cash flow. What are three things that people really care about? So you mentioned one, which is great user experience, and we really focus on that very simple, frictionless, very easy plug and play kind of solution. So that's key.
The second one, attractive returns, obviously, it's not about the only amount of returns, but based on the risk. So we always try to kind of find that good balance. So any kind of coin that we add, I mean, we cannot vouch for the coin or for blockchain, but we tried to kind of add things that we would also invest our own money in. And that's a key thing. And the last one that I feel is the most important one is that of transparency. So we built 100% of our product around transparency. In 2019 no one cared about that, it was all about rates and yield. This year with Terra Luna completely collapsing and Three Arrows and Celsius. And I don't know what other platform, suddenly everyone talks about transparency.
And so because we have designed our products that way, and we have never, for us, it has always been a no go to do anything different. That's why we have been winning.
U-Zyn Chua: The difference that we bring to compare to the other platforms are transparency, whatever all the use that we get that you see on our platform itself, they are not forward promise that we pay out to our users, they are in fact tracked on the DeFi protocols that users get into while the user they're getting. So they get to see where this user coming from and track where all the funds are.
This I think the key difference that we bring to the whole CeFi space. So we call ourselves CeDeFi. I think there's more and more people are coming on this space now to provide the finance service in a way that's very transparent, and yet not having to manage all these private keys on your own. The transparency part is where a lot of users did not care. Two years back when we first started, all investors care back then was just chasing yields. But now transparency is getting, becoming more and more important now.
Walter Jennings: Just to define a term you use CeFi that centralised finance versus DeFi decentralised finance. So just helping our listeners understand the differences. Now, you're a leader in the industry of DeFi or decentralised finance, and what we've been hearing quite frequently and when we look around the booth here, we see a lot of participants from CeFi or centralised finance. There's seem to be a lot of great meshing of the gears together. How much if at all, do you cross into the CeFi world? And how our DeFi and CeFi working together?
Julian Hosp: And then it's a really beautiful question, in 2019, we started really focusing on this idea of CeDeFi, where centralised finance is great because it's centralised, has good user experience, you have customer support. Everything is super efficient. I'm sure you have traditional finance that is also CeFi, which is banks and can be super archaic.
But if you look at some of the FinTechs, they can be super innovative, super easy to use. The CeFi space itself is actually very hard to use, because it means you are the bank, you have to do everything. And so what we did was try to merge those together, we call it CeDeFi because we tried to get the best out of the CeFi world with great customer experience, great platform, great onboarding, great to help, but at the same time, we want to stick to the principles of DeFi, which means full transparency, full access into all protocols, no black boxing.
We put ourselves into the same side of the customers what customers love is that we don't charge them unless the customers make money. So it's this Win Win kind of strategy. What DeFi always is, is this democratic decision of finance and we stick to those principles. So that's where the concept CeDeFi comes from.
Walter Jennings: U-Zyn, when you founded Cake DeFi what problem were you trying to solve?
U-Zyn Chua: A lot of users in the crypto space so I've been in a space for over 10 years, and we have been investing in coins and tokens. And what we did back then was just holding on to those coins and betting or hoping that the price would go up with more increasing utility.
Walter Jennings: So HODLers holding on for Dear Life.
U-Zyn Chua: Exactly. That's what I did. So we did see that a lot of users while they hold on to that coin, you can actually generate yield out of that. So when we started in 2019, we do see a movement that there's more financial products coming on the decentralised space, and for our mission is to bring this in a very easy and understandable way to retail. And that's what we did. And I think we have been really successful with that.
Walter Jennings: For the last three years, you've been very focused on the retail market, the individual investors, but I understand now there is Cake DeFi enterprise version. That's interesting, that crypto kind of took off in the retail space. And then institutions follow. Usually it's the other way around. Tell us about your latest offering.
Julian Hosp: Yeah, I mean, I think the reason for that is that just the retail is it's easy for retail to be innovative and adaptive. And I think for institutions, this takes a bit longer. We have just seen, especially last year 2021, that large institutions come to us fintechs, banks, and say the offering that you have for retail is outstanding. It's completely transparent. Is there any way we can use that as well, for our customers, we don't want to give you our funds, we didn't want to give you our customers. But is there any way we can work together and this was not possible last year.
And so we worked this entire year on having a white labelling solution of the service that we have built for our customers and provide that to the enterprise side. And so we're launching this year during the FinTech festival, everything's going to be ready in Q1 next year. So it's just perfect kind of time over the next three months for everyone. And I mean, the feedback from institution has been unbelievable, it's been really, it's been incredible. Like, you can really see how and again, it comes from scratching your own itch. It comes from, like us needing that. And then seeing a lot of businesses who want that and us delivering that.
U-Zyn Chua: From our experience the last three years, we did see that a lot of what we built there for our users, for investors. A lot of institutions also want the same thing you want to generate yield on your crypto holdings. A lot of institutions have crypto on their balance sheet as well. And they want to generate yield. But what they cannot do is that they cannot have their crypto sitting on other people's balance sheet, you can put it on the centralised platform and not control of your keys.
So what we do is we take out the great things about Cake DeFi and extend it to institutional users to generate yield. And they manage your own private keys, they manage everything, you get all the user friendliness of Cake DeFi while retaining full control of your digital asset. That's what we bring with enterprise. And we're here today to launch the enterprise platform to talk to industry players and talk to tell them about enterprise solutions.
Walter Jennings: Oh fantastic. And what are the types of companies that you're targeting with this enterprise solution?
U-Zyn Chua: We are targeting any companies that have cryptos and their balance sheet. Typically, the funds, the family offices, the financial institutions, basically any companies that have cryptos on their balance sheet, and they want to generate yield on their cryptos and not lose control of their cryptos.
Walter Jennings: It's so interesting when we were talking back in 2020, about institutional investors, we were wondering, when would they get into crypto? And then last year was how do they hold it without actually having taking possession of the coin. But obviously, the technologies have improved a lot. So we see a lot more institutions with ownership of the actual utility tokens or coins themselves. So this provides them new options.
U-Zyn Chua: Yeah, I agree 100%. I think there's a trend that's very obvious now that a lot of funds, a lot of institutions are getting to crypto holding on their balance sheets and a lot of users are also more educated now to demand, especially in this institution, to demand a control of their cryptos while not losing the yield part of the cryptos.
Walter Jennings: Definitely, but taking a retail product and reconfiguring it for institutional use sounds like a bit of a challenge. What were some of the bigger obstacles you faced in order to get this enterprise ready?
U-Zyn Chua: That's a great question. So when we design something for our own use, for our retail use, we can make a lot of assumptions that you can find for typical fund, you want to have multiple signatories to move a certain fund. But the same assumptions cannot be made for institutions because we need to build a very versatile product that institutions may want to define, let's say a fund below $100 movement, you don't need someone to sign because you don't want to wake up in the middle of the night having to sign a $50 transaction.
So you can define all of that on Cake DeFi enterprise, without us making any assumptions of how you want to define it. So that's the core part and also on the tech part where we build all of our services on cloud computing. And as we talk to institutions, we also find out that a lot of them have their own hosting solutions, have their own cloud providers. So we need to make our solution work with the cloud providers and also their own bare metal servers if they want to. So that's what we bring.
Walter Jennings: That's fantastic. What are the barriers to growth in Cake DeFi?
Julian Hosp: I think ... I mean, someone's always done tire environment, it's the the economy, it's how people feel. I mean, surely we are in the investment space. So if people really have to check their wallet at the end of the month, because there's just more time than money, then well, it's difficult to entice them to invest money into something like crypto. So obviously, that always has a massive factor. And I think the second one is just always a bit education. Because there would be ways how people would basically get more money to have a bit more time at the end of the month, but it needs education.
So you need to teach them how DeFi works, how the various services work, what's what, what's staking, what's lending, what are the various risks, what are the upsides. So, again, that's why we are changing a lot on our entire marketing is more into education now. It's more in the information. And it's a little bit of entertainment, also, because I always feel you know, when you put a smile on people's face, there's always this famous quote, what's better than a great keynote, a funny, great keynote.
And so the same here, right? If you what's better than great information, it's funny, great information. And so I think that's the kind of approach we're taking right now. And it works really well.
Walter Jennings: Now, one of the bigger challenges in decentralised finance is it's borderless and you're a fast growing company, how are you managing the growth globally? Or are you concentrating on certain markets as you scale.
Julian Hosp: We accept customers from all nonsanction regions or regions that are not on the OFAC list. We accept all those customers. And so we have customers, I think, from 100 different countries, but we do focus on certain regions where we just on the one hand, either feel that customers are very attracted to DeFi or where it's just a very interesting demographic. So we do have certain campaigns and certain marketing activities in various regions. But in general, we accept everyone. We do, of course, do full KYC checks, we follow all the money laundering guidelines, we fraud detection, we any kind of counter terrorist financing measures that we have to do all those. And that's again, that's the CeFi part.
And I also want to mention, I mean, this always brings up a little bit of a friction with the DeFi-purists who didn't say, hey, you know, you're actually not doing that. But my counter that is, but in return, I have 1.3 million customers that I bring into that ecosystem that couldn't do it themselves, or wouldn't want to do it themselves. They appreciate the help that we provide them, right. So I do understand if you can do it all yourself, and you want to do it all yourself, please go for it. Right. It's nothing stopping you. We attract those customers that are absolutely fine with the additional measures, and in return, get the handholding get the customer experience, get the easy access. And so that's what a win win comes from.
Walter Jennings: Well, U-Zyn, you introduced Cake DeFi in 2019. And in early 2020 began the pandemic. You've grown significantly over the three years, as CTO, how have you been winning the war for talent? Because I imagine the coders, developers and programmers you require are in heavy demand.
U-Zyn Chua: Yes. So there's two parts of that. One is we are lucky to be based right here in Singapore, where there's a very high concentration for tech talent. So we have been able to get the best people in the industry, especially engineers, working in crypto or even outside of crypto we want to hire we want to work with great engineers, even if you don't have crypto backgrounds, because great engineers are quite good engineers you don't need you can pick up all that on as you work with us.
And the other thing as well with the growth of crypto, with the growth of blockchain and we launch birthday research, basically an r&d lab and we've been putting out a lot of open source software in the space so that helps to bring to spread the word on what we do and engineer see that and naturally that's a pool factor then a lot of them just come to us and can we work with you because that's a great thing. So you guys are working I want to be part of you.
Walter Jennings: Yeah, know, Julian, we were speaking earlier. And you're from Europe. And I've clearly got an American Australian accent as everyone can tell. But you're based here in Singapore? Why here? And how is Asia Pacific as a market for you?
Julian Hosp: I think Singapore is one of the regions in the world that has at least taken a stance how they see crypto. I'm not saying that stance in Singapore is perfect. I don't think it's perfect. But what is perfect, at least have taken a stance and I think that's what makes it good for us as a company and as a platform. Would I sometimes wish that certain things were handled easier or some stricter in Singapore, for sure. But these are things that the government here is working on. And so if you look in the entire world, there's many governance, governments countries that just haven't taken any stance.
So as a company, you really, I think there, isn't like, the only thing that's worse than bad regulation is no regulation, because you have so much uncertainty. I know that so many purists. They love the no regulation part. But it just makes everything so tricky, and so difficult. And that's where I just think Singapore from a crypto standpoint is fantastic. I love that. Singapore is very entrepreneurial. It's very safe for young family. It's very open, it's very multicultural. And I just really love that. So I actually originally in 2014, and 2015, I came for crypto, I stayed for the country.
Walter Jennings: Regulatory certainty is critical. And how do you as CEO manage a fast growing company? What are the pain points? What keeps you up at night?
Julian Hosp: Sure, on the one hand, is always customers. And on the other hand team, I think team, the major thing on hiring is just always keeping the culture. I am very proud of. If I think of myself, like when people ask me, what do you do as the CEO, I always say, I do two things. I'm a project manager for the entire company. And I'm chief culture officer. So I just make sure that the culture in the company stays strong stays on one hand startup fee, but at the same time, stay structured.
And so that is I think, the main pain point, if you ask me, just hiring aggressively, adding people but keeping the culture, I think on the customer side, it's it, I think we've really changed especially over the past couple of months with the market sentiment, we've shifted more from a performance from a strict performance marketing, where that just worked really well in 2020-2021, where customers just love to do spend money on crypto and come into crypto because they felt there was only one direction which was up and now people really need to have a bit of a strong educational standpoint, they need to have them to understand the service better, they were just great. I mean, this is where the industry should be going.
And so we focus way more on content, way more in this educational kind of direction. And so that to me is just always the approach is that on the customer and on the team side that I look for.
Walter Jennings: You know, I've heard, repeated many time that culture eats strategy for breakfast, and you can have the best business strategy. But if you don't nail culture, you're gonna just keep churning through people.
Julian Hosp: Look. So I don't think there's a single company that ever says, Oh, I don't care about culture, but I promise you only a very small percentage really, really cares, really executes well. And I would pride myself that I that we belong to this 1%
Walter Jennings: U-Zyn, now, I want to back up a little bit, using when we spoke earlier, before the show, you mentioned you'd been in Bitcoin since 2009. Tell us a bit about your journey.
U-Zyn Chua: I've been into software development, especially on the cybersecurity part for most part of my life, doing a lot of cryptography, a lot of cybersecurity things. And I remember one some time late 2019 , sorry 2009, where stumble upon a posting on a security forum about Bitcoin. And when I read through that posting. It just occurs to me that this is a great use case of cryptography to change the world on how money could be to be handled.
It wasn't clear back then. But the the great use case of cryptography to build something that can be managed without any central party that's a great thing and just draw me in from the first point when I see it and from then on. Just keep building more and more tech, I've been involved in the tech scene especially and I also remember clearly where we, when we participate in a forum where, Satoshi was still there actively in that forum and never in our mind that he would just disappear one day and never return.
Walter Jennings: Now we're here reporting live from Singapore FinTech Festival, and other than Cake DeFi what are some of the exciting developments or technologies you're seeing on, during the course of the festival this week.
Julian Hosp: I think a lot of is centred around DeFi and the Web3 space. So the entire kind of Metaverse, NFT kind of site. I think NFT Metaverse, it's a I think it's a step behind in DeFi where I think we've seen this very first kind of hype cycle now and now it's kind of catching breath. And now I think it needs to weed out the not so smart at years and the smart ideas need to survive. But I think that's where we're seeing right now we're seeing a bit of a mix also between what's called NFT- Fi, which is like a mix of bit of the NFT space, the Web3 space and the DeFi space. So that's going to be a quite interesting thing. I think going forward the DeFi for business, not only from what we are offering, but what the actual use cases is quite interesting.
The the main issue just to kind of explain that to the users on a blockchain, people don't exist on a blockchain people exist in the real world. So we need to replicate ourselves on the blockchain, that's very difficult. We do this with these private keys, which are these really weird numbers that people have to memorise, and it's always a bit of a trick. So the upside of a company on enterprise would be that since a company's digital anyways, you could actually registered on the blockchain. And from that point on, you would have a very interesting approach and how finance between businesses contract and so on could be done.
So I actually think that could be a very exciting path forward, especially now that more and more businesses have caught up to how exciting DeFi can be.
U-Zyn Chua: The energy is amazing at this entire FinTech festival. So when I came over Expo, it's a huge, huge place, but it's filled with people and so full. I've been talking to so many people just this morning alone and can feel the energy and the excitement here and it's so great. A lot of people flying from outside is all over here.
Walter Jennings: One of the things I'm also loving about the event is after the lockdowns in pandemic to be able to see so many people in person and to be back in a event spaces and also it's been the surprising growth in new technologies in the last three years I've heard of some of them, I've seen some of the but now you're really seeing the explosion and maybe and if NFT was a distraction, DeFi was quietly building the mountain.
Julian Hosp: I mean, I saw this with the Formula One which was basically the first event in Singapore after pretty much the opening up now. And it was it you could always see how just people want to do get out and experience again. And now this is the first really large kind of event again after the the opening and yeah you see it. I mean I think it's the largest fintech festival they've ever had, there's more people here than ever it's god so filled and and I agree I mean just people who haven't seen in years with the lockdowns on everything and now do you see it in person. It's super exciting.
Walter Jennings: Before I end, we have a segment called tracks in the Finoverse. And we're asking people what music would power their journey. So is there one that you've got?
Julian Hosp: So I'm gonna give you a super unexpected answer. I have three very young kids and when I'm in the car with them I would have to listen to children's song so I listen to almost no other songs right now and children song. Ao yeah it would be probably like something like Baby Shark.
Walter Jennings: Oh no..
Julian Hosp: Because it's what I'm used to all day,day in, day out. I don't get to listen to my own music anymore. That's the sad thing about being a young dad.
Well I'm not sure because I don't know if you want to put people on a torture chamber but..
Walter Jennings: We're going to do it that's the song yeah okay no worries I thought you'd be going for cake by the ocean but that's when your children are older but no thank you. For all of our listeners who don't want to have a baby shark repeating in their head now's a great time to turn the episode off. U-Zyn Chua, Julian Hosp, it's a pleasure to have you on Waves in the Finoverse. Wishing you the best for a successful launch of Cake DeFi enterprise and have a happy Singapore Fintech Festival.
U-Zyn Chua: Thank you, Walter.
Julian Hosp: Thank you.